Generator neutral-ground bonding

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by LeftOverParts

We carry two portable, 2000 watt Champion gens just in case. They have a ground terminal and the instructions say to ground it.

FWIW, this OSHA link states when a portable gen should be grounded.

https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/f..._generator.pdf

The National Electric Code has a long section on RVs and RV parks. Here is a section on RV generators.

From NFPA 70 National Electric Code.

Article 551
Recreational vehicles and recreational vehicle parks.

Part III. Other Power Sources

551.30 Generator Installations

(A) Mounting. Generators shall be mounted in such a manner as to be effectively bonded to the recreational vehicle chassis. The connection of the electrical system produced by the generator shall provide an effective ground-fault return path when operational.

[firestation12]

Originally Posted by BB_TX

I can provide you any number of technical links about electric current requiring a closed loop back to source to provide a path for flow. And, that current will not flow in an open circuit. Apparently you can not provide a link to support your position that those electrons can leak out to no where. Not my job to validate your claims.

We will leave it at that.

We? You and the mouse in your pocket?
No where has a closed loop been disputed for a circuit to operated equipment. What is in dispute is the incessant claim you make that a GFCI, in particularly a GFCI installed on a two wire ungrounded circuit, cannot operate without a ground and the ludicrous explanation of how old underground pipes accomplish the needed ground. One reply actually tried to explain to you, that in a 2 wire outlet sans a ground wire, there is nothing connecting the GFCI to the underground piping. Yet that went over like a lead balloon. I read the reply in the RV.net link you finally admitted (to time2roll) that a GFCI does not require a ground wire to operate. Why do you now keep claiming here that it does? I loved this statement you made in the RV.net forum, “You guys keep telling me I am wrong”. Then you ask them to tell you where you are wrong. Enblethan posts a link to Mike Holt who states “An interesting point about these devices (GFCIs) is despite their name, they will operate on a circuit with or without an equipment grounding conductor”. Write a letter to Mike Holt. Ask him where the “leaked” current goes. Maybe he’ll have better luck explaining (I can guarantee Holt will not include underground pipes as the pathway a 2 wire ungrounded GFCI works). For those who may not know who Mike Holt is, he contributes to the formation of NEC regulation as well as authors books on interpreting the NEC. Are we done now?

[firestation12]

Originally Posted by BB_TX

The National Electric Code has a long section on RVs and RV parks. Here is a section on RV generators.

From NFPA 70 National Electric Code.

Article 551
Recreational vehicles and recreational vehicle parks.

Part III. Other Power Sources

551.30 Generator Installations

(A) Mounting. Generators shall be mounted in such a manner as to be effectively bonded to the recreational vehicle chassis. The connection of the electrical system produced by the generator shall provide an effective ground-fault return path when operational.

Did anyone question the need to bond a permanently mounted generator’s frame to the RV chassis? There was discussion relevant to portable generators.
And what does NEC 551.30 have to do with whether a GFCI needs a ground to trip? Are all circuit wiring required to have grounding conductors? Why yes.

[BB_TX]

A GFCI trips because there is a difference between the current flowing in/out the H pin and the current flowing out/in the N pin. That means that difference in current has left the circuit between those two pins. Once again I will ask you. Where did that lost current go? You question every thing I say and yet you can’t seem to answer that basic question.

[BB_TX]

As for a GFCI tripping in an old home with no ground. Example. You have an old toaster with bad wiring and the neutral wire is touching the metal case. You plug that into an ungrounded GFCI outlet. The toaster will work. But when turned on, the GFCI will not trip even though neutral is touching the metal case because there is no ground to the outlet to create the needed imbalance in current. Now while touching the toaster you reach over and touch a metal faucet or kitchen sink and some current will pass thru your body to the metal fixture to the metal pipes to earth ground to the earth ground rod at the power source and back to the power source itself. And the GFCI will trip.

[firestation12]

Originally Posted by BB_TX

A GFCI trips because there is a difference between the current flowing in/out the H pin and the current flowing out/in the N pin. That means that difference in current has left the circuit between those two pins. Once again I will ask you. Where did that lost current go? You question every thing I say and yet you can’t seem to answer that basic question.

Opnspaces explained it to you on 6/23/23 RV.net. Here it is reposted:

The Imbalance you are looking for is the person holding the plug as they are plugging in a lamp with a bare wire poking out of the insulation. Yep happened to me but no GFCI to test it against. I just got the tingle and let go. But the bottom line is the GFCI is there for current getting where it doesn't belong. Whether the unintended path is a persons hand, a dog's nose, or whatever.

[mlh]

Originally Posted by BB_TX

I can provide you any number of technical links about electric current requiring a closed loop back to source to provide a path for flow. And, that current will not flow in an open circuit. Apparently you can not provide a link to support your position that those electrons can leak out to no where. Not my job to validate your claims.

We will leave it at that.

The guy working on a 760 KV line from a helicopter proves to me you haft to have a way back to the source oh yes peeing on an electric fence is really all the proof I needed as a youth.
Lynwood

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by firestation12

Opnspaces explained it to you on 6/23/23 RV.net. Here it is reposted:

The Imbalance you are looking for is the person holding the plug as they are plugging in a lamp with a bare wire poking out of the insulation. Yep happened to me but no GFCI to test it against. I just got the tingle and let go. But the bottom line is the GFCI is there for current getting where it doesn't belong. Whether the unintended path is a persons hand, a dog's nose, or whatever.

The tingle was because some of the current was directed thru him to some conductive path back the power source. And since he had no ground it could have been back to neutral itself, or as I mentioned a path to earth ground such as him touching a plumbing fixture. And had he had a GFCI outlet the GFCI would have tripped because of that errant current going thru him rather than the GFCI outlet.

And you still have not answered my question. You simply keep referring to statements of others.

[Jay Merritt]

I had an error on my EMS until I put a Neutral Bond plug in one of the outlets of my Honda 2000 generator.