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Old 06-07-2022, 08:38 AM   #1
Lee-CI
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Solar Upgrade Planning - Input Welcomed

I realize this will be considered a long post, but I’m looking for input from fellow MOC owners. I know there are several on here that have the larger SolarFlex setups up to and including SuperSolar and beyond. Our 2022 model came with the baseline SolarFlex 200. It is looking like in for a penny, in for a pound.


As for what we will be using our MHC for, on down the road we will be full timing in the future. Currently frequent state parks and COEs. This will change in the future to include overnight boondocking trips during our travels. At this time none of our travels are expected to be extended boondocking trips.


Our MHC is not generator prepped, and as per our signature line I’ve already hardwired a SurgeGuard EMS. With the residential refrigerator, our unit came with a Magnum-Industries 2012 series 2000w inverter, single 200w solar panel and Victron 75/15 MPPT controller.


I’ve already installed a Renogy 40a DC to DC charger for use during travel days and have a pair of 206hr SOK LiFePo4 batteries sitting in my den awaiting installation. My research has indicated that Future Sales has discontinued their 300w solar panels in favor of 330w panels of apparently the same dimensions. I’m considering installing a pair of these panels to up our solar to 860w total, along with a Victron Multi-Plus II 3000w inverter/charger, a 100/50 MPPT controller for the new solar panels to run in parallel with our current 75/15 unit, 500a shunt and Cerbo GX to tie everything together. I’m considering leaving the 200w panel and 75/15 MPPT on it’s own 10awg wiring circuit and running a separate heavier gauge wiring run for the pair of 330w panels and 100/50 MPPT controller. At this time I’m also thinking I’ll leave the 2000w M-I inverter in place on the loop for the refrigerator. One soft start for the bedroom A/C would also be in the works.


I'm planning on discontinuing use of our current converter since the Multi-Plus II incorporates its own converter.



Okay – flaws or issues in my thinking process? I know other’s will surely have thoughts, opinions and maybe even suggestions. Trust me when I say that I’m wearing my big boy pants and would gladly consider any and all suggestions. I am hoping to take advantage of the wealth of knowledge within this group and not make needlessly costly mistakes from poor decisions upon my part. Thanks in advance for everyone’s input on this. Happy camping!
 
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Old 06-07-2022, 09:19 AM   #2
tjblocker
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I'm doing many of the same things you are doing.

My wife and I are retired fulltimers. We've lived in an Arctic Fox for five years but recently purchased a 2022 3231CK fiver. We spend much of the year off grid in Quartzsite. Ours has 400 watts factory on the roof, and I plan to install an additional 600 watts paired with a 150 | 45 Victron controller. I also have 400 watts of portable. We have a 300ah lifepo4 (LifeBlue) battery and I plan to purchase a second. The bluetooth connection to the battery is pretty useful.

I use two converters. A few years ago I purchased a Progressive Dynamics 60 amp converter for lithium. I left the factory converter in place. Should I need to run the genny for batteries I would use both converters and this would charge batteries very quickly having a charge current of over 100 amps. Two converters loads my Honda 2000 pretty heavily but it handles it. I see not reason to remove a converter. Lead acid battery converters won't hurt lithium; they just won't fully charge the battery. I almost never exceed 14.4 volts on my battery in an effort to be gentle.

I plan to use factory solar prep, but I will have to wire the 600 watts in series to keep current below the 30 amp rating. On the Fox I ran 6 gauge, but want to avoid making more holes in the roof.

I also have 400 watts Zamp portable panels. These are real useful when I want to park the trailer in shade. I can move the panels into the sun. Having both fixed and portable has its advantages.

I plan to install my panels using strut channel. If curious please Youtube "strut channel RV solar". It's a cleaner way to do it.

Oh yea, panels in series don't generate much if there is any shade on any panel. That's the disadvantage of series connection. But the alternative is to run new conductor, which I don't want to do.

I have an RV fridge, but am considering changing the cooling unit to 12volt compressor using products from JC Refrigeration.

I'd be happy to compare notes or answer questions. Good luck
Tom
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Old 06-08-2022, 08:34 AM   #3
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Most modern panels have bypass diodes and shading is contained to the the effected panels only. In addition multiple panels in series raise the PV voltage thereby negating the potential voltage drop between the PV array and SCC. The VOC of our array is 149vdc allowing us to utilize the OEM 10AWG wire with neglible voltage drop. With temp correction the PV voltage can actually approach 187v. Lastly higher PV voltage makes for earlier harvesting in the AM and later harvesting in the evening.
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Old 06-08-2022, 09:44 AM   #4
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Greatly appreciate folks input, knowledge and suggestions.

In regards to the array, the proposed addition of a pair of 330w panels would be wired in series and have a value of Voc/V: 39.85 and the existing 200w panel has a value of Voc/V: 40.12. Would a single MPPT controller of 100/50 safely handle the input of the array wired series / parallel on the existing 10awg wiring? If I understand correctly, the 10awg wiring is good for 30 amps - with associated line loss of course. I plugged the following into an online calculator. Am I out in left field here or am I on the right track?
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Old 06-08-2022, 10:01 AM   #5
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You are definitely in the MPPT realm if you want to use dissimilar panels. If it were me I would use separate controllers. Just not worth the headache. Also since the Montana roof is convex a single SCC may have issues hitting the max power point since the panels on the door side are at a different angle than the panels on the ODS.

Do you panels have temp coefficient numbers? You need that to temp correct the voltage. As the weather gets colder the panels put out higher output. I think you may be close at correcting 80v to the 100v limit of your SCC. Victron has a online calculator you can verify with.
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Old 06-08-2022, 10:29 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy View Post
You are definitely in the MPPT realm if you want to use dissimilar panels. If it were me I would use separate controllers. Just not worth the headache. Also since the Montana roof is convex a single SCC may have issues hitting the max power point since the panels on the door side are at a different angle than the panels on the ODS.

Cool. Can't say enough how much other's input is appreciated. Original thought process was to utilize two separate MPPTs and running a dedicated heavier gauge wire pair for the expansion panels - with the unlikelihood of even more future additions. Utilizing the existing wiring run would have been the easiest, but easiest is not always the best - or smartest. Thanks for not letting me head off down a rabbit hole with my thought process.
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Old 10-15-2022, 11:44 AM   #7
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Hi Lee,

Your equip list is what I just installed except for batteries! Here is a couple of pics of the gear minus the panels. They are not installed yet.

I almost bought a bunch of panels like the Future Solutions. They matched what came installed on my unit. But they are $$$$$. I opted for Rich Solar 24v 200w panels. At $250.00 ea, I could get three of them for the price of one FS panel. I am putting up 1200w so I saved $2k this way!!

Battercablesusa.com for all your wiring. They custom make each cable to your specs. And there "extreme" 4/0 is super flexible. Cost was better than i could buy materials and tooling for. Not to mention the time saver! Stage all your gear, get your measurements (pay CLOSE attention to your bolt/stud sizes on each cable!), and in a couple days a nice neat package arrives.

For Panels/Main equip, I used Battleborn. They package all the victron gear up and the panels. Price is same as anywhere on web except when you buy as a "bundle", they do an unadvertised 7% discount on package.

Ok enough about shopping .... on the install side....
-Disconnects/Fuses/breakers - I forgot a couple when designing
-Torque connects properly to avoid introducing resistance (causes heat build)
-Watch tight bends in your 4/0 to batteries and inverter (resistance/heat build)
-Do the Lynx hack to get your fuse lights to work.
-Ruuvi tags work awesome with the Cerbo to monitor bay temps and track in VRM
-4/0 cable for batteries and inverter connections. Consider a Class T 400amp fuse close as possible to batteries. That inverter can draw lots of amps

Let me know if I can help with any other details! My next project is getting the LPG tanks, and other tanks to work with the Cerbo display.
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Old 10-15-2022, 02:43 PM   #8
tjblocker
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ScottM, thank you for your reply. I appreciate hearing what you've done.

I've also purchased custom cables and have been very happy with the quality. Their crimps are excellent quality.

Battleborn is an excellent choice. These are high quality batteries for sure. I chose Lifeblue because Lifeblue batteries come with a android app that connects to the battery and gives SOC, VOC, temp, current in or out (+-amps), and an event log.

I've recently installed an Amish 12 volt dual compressor cooling unit. It works but it really hits my battery hard, much harder than I expected. I have a 300 ah Lifeblue and am finding that the fridge draws much more current than I expected. I go to bed with battery at full and get up with 10-20% SOC. That's a huge draw (~260ah). The person that installed the cooling unit installed 10 awg cable, but we should have installed 4 or 6 awg. The wire run is about 60ft running the full length of the 37 foot trailer and forward through my slide another 15-20ft. I expect that voltage is pretty low at the compressor causing current to be higher than is optimal. I plan to run 6 awg in place of the 10.

I currently have 800 watts generation (400 fixed and 400 portable) but have plans to install another 600 fixed. I hope to provide 100% of 12 volt power via solar regardless of where we are parked.

I appreciated your suggestions. Thanks
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Old 10-15-2022, 03:39 PM   #9
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Hi TJ,

I see your profile says Box Elder. Is that Box Elder MT? If so I am in Great Falls, MT not too far.

That seems like a huge draw. Do you have any specs on the replacement unit? Does it have any amp or watts ratings on it? Can you post it? By any chance is this a JC Unit?

Have you checked the voltage drop at the back of the fridge? You can take a voltage reading at the battery, and then take a reading at the fridge. Compare the two. This would give and idea of the voltage drop or loss the 10ga is causing. Do you have a meter with a clamp for checking amp draw?

I think the double compress units typically have an 11-12 amp draw rating. Yours would be closer to 2-2.5 times that amount. Is that wire warm or hot at all?

We can figure the solar side out after we tackle that load.
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Old 10-15-2022, 03:55 PM   #10
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The conductor is not warm. I've been unable to get voltage readings at the compressors because I'm having problems with my VOM. Might buy an amp meter. But I can see current draw for the entire coach via Lifeblue's app, and it seems to me that the current is about 20-25 amps higher than normal while in every thing off state. Everything off current used to be around 10 amps but now it's over 30. While normally we expect #10 wire to handle 30 amps, it suffers from resistance when run is ~50 ft. Wire calculators suggest I should have run at least #6. I have a laser temp meter and check temps with it. Nothing is warmer than about 85 degrees but ambient is close to 80.



We are full timers and we use a full timer mail service in Box Elder SD as our legal address (Americas Mailbox)... it's called a PMB address. if you drive to our address you find a business.



We are boondocking and living off grid. Our minimum current draw is over 20 amps and sometimes as high as 35 amps. I know that when watts are fixed, lowering voltage increases current. That's one advantage of the higher lithium voltage, it takes less current when voltage is higher. This is because volts (potential) times amps (current) times power factor (1 for dc) = wattage (power).
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Old 10-15-2022, 04:09 PM   #11
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Good to hear wire temps are ok. What model is your fridge? Was this a unit from JC Refrigeration? I was actually considering one of those replacements
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Old 10-15-2022, 04:56 PM   #12
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The fridge is a Norcold 2118 which is a huge 18+ cubic foot RV absorption fridge that gets horrible reviews. Every one that has one hates it, for It seems like everyone that has one has trouble getting it to maintain temps. Turned up to nine (1-9) if it was 90 degrees outside the fridge would be 45-50 degrees and freezer would hoover around 20.
Yes, I had a JC refrigeration 12 volt dual compressor cooling unit installed. For a while I had it connected directly to my genset via 10ft of 10 gauge wire. The fridge and freezer temps would fall very quickly. The installer ran 10 awg wire but it takes about a 50ft run for it has to run from the front to the very back where it enters the slide out and travels forward for about 15-20 ft. The run is about 50 ft. 10awg is not large enough for a run so long. Wire calculators suggest 4 or 6 gauge.

Once I replace the conductor I will post the result here. I saw temps well below zero when it was connected to the genset, but 0 seems to be the minimum now. I suspect the compressors are not running at full speed, but am guessing. If I had it to do again I might choose the AC compressor.

If your fridge is large then the factory 12 volt wire might be much too small. My compressors wouldn't even start connected to factory conductor.
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Old 10-22-2022, 08:48 AM   #13
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Solar Flex

While I don’t have any solar panels installed, my coach has the wiring for the 200 level solar. I am purchasing 2 390w solar panels and a 150/60 MPPT controller from https://www.solar-electric.com/. They seem to have a wide variety of panels and solar gear. This will also allow me to use the installed 10 gauge wire.

Good luck with your upgrade.
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Old 10-22-2022, 06:52 PM   #14
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I have 4 350watt bifacial panels on my roof. Each is on its own MPPT controller to compensate for the roof arch, They are all on tilt brackets so I can tilt them for winter in Quartzsite AZ. You must install a disconnect means between the panels and MPPT controllers and between the controllers and the batteries. I just installed breakers for both applications. I also have 600AH of lithium and Cerbo and a 30 amp DC to DC charger for truck charging while traveling. Sounds like you have a solid plan! I also kept the 1000 inverter for the fridge and the factory converter just for insurance in case I ever have issues with the equipment which is all Victron Energy. I was a boy scout. 2 is 1, 1 is none!
Good luck in your solar adventure.
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Old 10-23-2022, 05:55 PM   #15
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Todd & Mary
You have quite the setup. My Montana is less than 6 months old so it is still a work in progress. We spend winters boondocking outside Quartzsite every winter. In past years solar made all of my power while here, and that is my goal for the Montana. But it uses over 300 ah per day.

On an aside, I think my fridge draws about 11 amps. Freezer is almost always -2 to 4 degrees and fridge hoovers around 34. This is far better than what my fridge did with an absorption cooling unit, with was crap. I do not recommend the Norcold 2118. It's a huge beautiful fridge that doesn't really work very well. It struggles to keep fridge at 45 and the freezer was almost never below 10-15 degrees. On another aside, if I had to do it again I would choose the Amish 120 volt compressor cooling unit.

I think very highly of Victron hardware. I have 400 watts factory solar and it's controlled using a Victron MPPT controller. I will install Victron for the new solar I install.

And good luck to you. I wish for you fun and safe travels.

Cheers
Tom
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Old 10-24-2022, 11:53 AM   #16
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Thanks Tom

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjblocker View Post
Todd & Mary
You have quite the setup. My Montana is less than 6 months old so it is still a work in progress. We spend winters boondocking outside Quartzsite every winter. In past years solar made all of my power while here, and that is my goal for the Montana. But it uses over 300 ah per day.

On an aside, I think my fridge draws about 11 amps. Freezer is almost always -2 to 4 degrees and fridge hoovers around 34. This is far better than what my fridge did with an absorption cooling unit, with was crap. I do not recommend the Norcold 2118. It's a huge beautiful fridge that doesn't really work very well. It struggles to keep fridge at 45 and the freezer was almost never below 10-15 degrees. On another aside, if I had to do it again I would choose the Amish 120 volt compressor cooling unit.

I think very highly of Victron hardware. I have 400 watts factory solar and it's controlled using a Victron MPPT controller. I will install Victron for the new solar I install.

And good luck to you. I wish for you fun and safe travels.

Cheers
Tom
We will be in Quartzsite this year as well, I retired in July and we sold our house are now fulltimers. Our house is closing 11/1. We will be in AZ for the winter beginning of November. I agree on the fridge. It took me about 1 year to get solar start to finish. Lots of money and lots of labor!
Good travels, maybe we'll see you in Quartzsite!
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