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Old 04-10-2022, 09:40 PM   #1
bobt231
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Lippert Leveling/Hydraulic System Overload Issues

Greetings to all. My wife and I purchased an 18 month old 2020 Legacy 3120 RL. Love the coach and here comes the issue.

In January we went camping. When I was putting the slides in, one would go in about half way, then stopped and everything in the coach went out. No lights, the In Command system was dark. About 30-45 seconds later the power comes back on, In Command reboots and slides were able to go in. When I went outside, hooked up and used the control panel to go to "all jacks up", the system started to work, but the jacks would go up about 2-3 inches and stop, similar to what happened with the slides, but after the system resets, I had to use the manual mode to get all six jacks up to their starting point. We made it home and made an appointment with service dealer.

To make this a bit shorter, after diagnosis they are saying that the reason there was an "overload" was that something in the system that had "come apart" and caused something, rubber or metal, to enter the system and that was causing a system overload. Their fix? To replace all six leveling jacks, the vertical pump/motor and two slide rams. I will not put the price in here but you can guess.

Has anyone had anything like this happen to your Lippert systems? And if so what were the reasons? Thank you.
 
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Old 04-10-2022, 11:22 PM   #2
Daryles
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Download the Lippert NOW app from Google play store. Lots of good info, manuals, TSB, troubleshooting etc.
Lippert also has excellent help desk support.
Phone: 574-537-8900
Email: customerservice@Lci1.com

First thing that comes to mind is the TSB regarding putting the hydraulic system on its own 80A circuit breaker. There is a copy of it in the files section.
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Old 04-10-2022, 11:41 PM   #3
Carl n Susan
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It looks like it has been, and still is, a bit cold in your area. You write this occurred in January. Where were you camping? The hydraulic fluid is affected by cold weather and causes the pump to work harder which increases the amperage required. The 50 amp self resetting circuit breaker would be my guess as the first place to check as Daryles suggested.

Also call Lippert as they are terrific to work with and very helpful.

I don't know who "they" are that did the diagnosis but to say "the system that had "come apart" and caused something, rubber or metal, to enter the system and that was causing a system overload." is extremely difficult to believe. (please don't tell me it was CW).

On Edit: If "50 amp self resetting circuit breaker" is a new term for you then read this Thread. It should help.
https://www.montanaowners.com/forums...ad.php?t=83308
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Old 04-11-2022, 08:12 AM   #4
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Sounds like the "they" doesn't know what's wrong or is trying to rip you off. Call Lippert directly. They will walk you through diagnostics. I seriously doubt your entire system is fucacta.
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Old 04-11-2022, 05:32 PM   #5
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Not saying this is your problem but I have a 2019 3121RL & a year ago my hydraulic leveling system would cease from working in cooler temps. It was suggested on this forum that I remove the 50 amp auto reset breaker and replace with a manual reset 80 amp breaker. I was told the system calls for 80 amp breaks but the factory installs a cheaper 50 amp. I changed mine out to the 80 amp immediately and have had zero issues with the system since...? Knocking on wood now!
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Old 04-12-2022, 05:51 AM   #6
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I agree with the folks that say it is the 50 Amp resettable breaker.
I would also call Lippert.

I would also find a new place to get service.
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Old 04-12-2022, 12:04 PM   #7
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"They" are trying to get their hands VERY deep into your pockets for no reason!
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Old 04-12-2022, 08:09 PM   #8
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Agree, sounds like bad bad diagnostics
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Old 04-12-2022, 11:30 PM   #9
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Further information

After spending about 5 hours today at the dealership talking to service advisor and tech, talking to Lippert customer service, very nice by the way, and was the same tech that the dealership had talked to, talking to two other repair facilities about the problem, the warranty company (don't go there now!) I am convinced that metal particles/shaving/spurs located with a magnet in the hydraulic fluid even after three flushes (Lippert directed) is the result of one of the internal valves, pistons, pumps failing and the only way to have the system working and guaranteed is to have the leveling jacks, the slide rams and vertical pump replaced.

Now getting the warranty company to pay is the war of words right now.

Thanks to everyone that replied. If the new information sparks something, let me know. I appreciate it.
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Old 04-13-2022, 07:45 AM   #10
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I am not convinced that changing all of this is the issue... The fact that you could manually run the hyd pump and motor with a drill and all worked ok give me the feeling the basic system is fine..

Changing out the levelers, hyd slide cylinders, hydraulic pump, every Hydac valve, etc would be the only way to eliminate metal particles unless they can pinpoint exactly where the metal came from in the first place..

The full overload on the resettable breaker for the dual polarity solenoid is causing it to OPEN UP killing power to pump motor, it cools off and resets, run some more and trips

The BCM WILL always go nuts and do a reset any time the 12 volts DC BUS gets a large glitch on it

I would have upgraded that resettable breaker to 80 amp and removed and cleaned all the cable leads from battery, breakers, soleniod, etc and then evaluated

Curious to see how this all turns out...

IF they are gonna replace all of the cylnders and pump and dont replace ALL of the Hydac valves how do they know that one of them isnt the source of metal and how are they gonna guarantee that a Hydcac valve orifce doesnt plug...

They can't
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Old 04-13-2022, 12:49 PM   #11
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Well stated ChuckS.
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Old 04-13-2022, 04:02 PM   #12
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Guys and Gals, I don't have a dog in this hunt, but this discussion has peaked my curiosity. On the full Montana and largest HC units, does the output side of the hydraulic pumps have high pressure filter units? If not, then this is surely an oversight or design discrepancy. I've worked offshore maintaining and operating subsea ROVs for many years and we would never have any hydraulic circuitry without a filtration system. Valves and other components can and do fail. That is the nature of the beast. Proper filtration however dramatically stops the migration of metal particles of a pump or valve after a total failure. Again - I'm simply curious.
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Old 04-13-2022, 05:35 PM   #13
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If I were the warranty company, and was even slightly familiar with the Lippert system, before any decision was made about any parts replacement, I would demand having the auto reset breaker replaced. All the symptoms of the start and stop is exactly the same symptoms that a weak or failed auto reset breaker causes. Our rig has over 76,000 miles on it, so a lot of extending and retracting the jacks and slides, even had the hydraulic pump motor rebuilt a while back, and having replaced the too small auto reset breaker back in 2013 with an 80 amp breaker, the hydraulic system continues to work flawlessly. Just can’t imagine the entire hydraulic system needing replacement this early in its life.
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Old 04-14-2022, 09:10 AM   #14
ChuckS
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Originally Posted by Lee-CI View Post
Guys and Gals, I don't have a dog in this hunt, but this discussion has peaked my curiosity. On the full Montana and largest HC units, does the output side of the hydraulic pumps have high pressure filter units? If not, then this is surely an oversight or design discrepancy. I've worked offshore maintaining and operating subsea ROVs for many years and we would never have any hydraulic circuitry without a filtration system. Valves and other components can and do fail. That is the nature of the beast. Proper filtration however dramatically stops the migration of metal particles of a pump or valve after a total failure. Again - I'm simply curious.
There is NO filter anywhere in this simple hydraulic system and quite frankly one isn't needed... If there was a filter it would just cause more problems for 90% or more of the RV OPS..

Why? most don't swap out the fluid every 3 to 5 years and don't even know what type of fluid is in the reservoir.. Add a filter in line and the OPs that don't maintain their RV will just have further issues

Everyone assume it is ATF but that's not always the case.. regardless of what Lipperts PDFs say..

For example.. my Keystone Alpine came OEM with AW32 fluid.. that's what I keep in it and change every 3 years for gee whiz .. Other units came OEM with ATF fluid..

After 8 years of use with the six point hyd level up and 3 hydraulic slide outs I have yet to see the tiniest spec of any metal contamination.

The number of cycles on this hydraulic system ( for slide motion and leveling system) are quite small compared to any normal hydraulic system in an industrial or aircraft environment.. There is not much heat involved due to the limited number of cycles over several years of use...

Keeping the system simple as Lippert has done over the years has provided a fairly robust and reliable system.. except for the newer built aluminum cylinders that have had some issues..

The EQ Hydraulic System that Alpine is switching over to is ... a piece of junk...
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Old 04-14-2022, 04:08 PM   #15
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Something else to consider is the iNCommand body control module (BMC). I had a similar problem with the slides stopping. I figured it was the 50 amp resettable breaker several others have listed above. I checked my rig and found that I had a factory installed 80 amp breaker and it was not tripping while the slides were in operation. I checked the battery, all connections, etc- couldn't find anything.

I gave up and took it to the dealership. $700 and a battery compartment full of hydraulic fluid later they pronounced the whole system kaput. Said I would need new hydraulic cylinders, valves- the whole works. They claimed this was based on advice from Lippert.

I declined and took my rig home. I got out my multimeter and just started tracing stuff. I found that the iNCommand BCM sends a low amperage signal to the trombetta solenoid, which in turn sends the high amp current to the hydraulic pump to power the slides. The BCM would send the low amp signal to my meter all day long, but would disappear when connected to the trombetta solenoid.

My solution was to run the low amp signal from the BCM to trigger two standard 40 amp automotive relays (one for extend, one for retract), which then pass a higher amp signal from the downstream side of the 80 amp breaker to trigger the trombetta solenoid.

Just to be clear- my wiring only carries the signal from the BCM- not the current to power the pump. The pump still pulls power from the trombetta solenoid just like when it left the factory.

This fix has worked perfectly for 4 years now. Total cost $25.

I want be sure to post this because there's not a lot information for people dealing with iNCommand systems. And also, just because the 50/80 amp breaker is by far the most common problem, it's not the only possible problem. AND I'm not an RV tech, electrician, underwear model or astronaut- so please forgive me if some of my nomenclature is wrong.

Good luck with your rig and check the signal from the BCM.
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Old 04-14-2022, 04:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
There is NO filter anywhere in this simple hydraulic system and quite frankly one isn't needed... If there was a filter it would just cause more problems for 90% or more of the RV OPS..

Why? most don't swap out the fluid every 3 to 5 years and don't even know what type of fluid is in the reservoir.. Add a filter in line and the OPs that don't maintain their RV will just have further issues

Everyone assume it is ATF but that's not always the case.. regardless of what Lipperts PDFs say..

For example.. my Keystone Alpine came OEM with AW32 fluid.. that's what I keep in it and change every 3 years for gee whiz .. Other units came OEM with ATF fluid..

After 8 years of use with the six point hyd level up and 3 hydraulic slide outs I have yet to see the tiniest spec of any metal contamination.

The number of cycles on this hydraulic system ( for slide motion and leveling system) are quite small compared to any normal hydraulic system in an industrial or aircraft environment.. There is not much heat involved due to the limited number of cycles over several years of use...

Keeping the system simple as Lippert has done over the years has provided a fairly robust and reliable system.. except for the newer built aluminum cylinders that have had some issues..

The EQ Hydraulic System that Alpine is switching over to is ... a piece of junk...

Thanks for the input Chuck - now I know. I got a big chuckle out of what you said about most neither changing out their fluid nor knowing what type of fluid was to be used. I'll admit, I have even seen some - SOME - farmers with the same mind set with their tractors - 20 or 30 year old tractors with the same fluid in the tranny and differentials. When they did have a breakdown - and they eventually did - it was catastrophic. Oh well, some can get away with such things for years and years.
Thanks again.
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Old 04-17-2022, 03:43 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by bobt231 View Post
Greetings to all. My wife and I purchased an 18 month old 2020 Legacy 3120 RL. Love the coach and here comes the issue.

In January we went camping. When I was putting the slides in, one would go in about half way, then stopped and everything in the coach went out. No lights, the In Command system was dark. About 30-45 seconds later the power comes back on, In Command reboots and slides were able to go in. When I went outside, hooked up and used the control panel to go to "all jacks up", the system started to work, but the jacks would go up about 2-3 inches and stop, similar to what happened with the slides, but after the system resets, I had to use the manual mode to get all six jacks up to their starting point. We made it home and made an appointment with service dealer.

To make this a bit shorter, after diagnosis they are saying that the reason there was an "overload" was that something in the system that had "come apart" and caused something, rubber or metal, to enter the system and that was causing a system overload. Their fix? To replace all six leveling jacks, the vertical pump/motor and two slide rams. I will not put the price in here but you can guess.

Has anyone had anything like this happen to your Lippert systems? And if so what were the reasons? Thank you.
Find an honest dealer. Nothing you said suggests 6 jacks are bad. More likely batteries, old 50A resettable breaker and a few more that might need service but no, not what they said.
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Old 04-17-2022, 04:06 PM   #18
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I would bet on the 50 amp breaker. I replaced mine and all the slide issues disappeared. My problem was the same as yours.
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Old 04-17-2022, 07:35 PM   #19
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Slide and jacks overload

I have a 2019 3931FB and it does the same thing, I will first check the fuse
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Old 04-17-2022, 08:20 PM   #20
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Call LCI customer service they are great about trouble shooting
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