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Old 02-14-2017, 08:05 AM   #1
jameswbarton
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High Country and Cold Weather

I was just informed by Owner Relations that I should not attempt to use my HC 375 FL in temps under 32 degrees as the unit is not designed for that.

I showed the pictures from the High Country sales brochure stating four season use ability and tested to zero degrees.

So I guess Keystone is guilty of false advertising or Owner Relations is not fully informed of the Montana Design Capability?

I do see there is literally no insulation or intergrity to the basement where all the plumbing and tanks are.

I am confused!
 
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:28 AM   #2
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There were several High Country's out here in NM this winter and it got cold and very windy and they seemed to have survived.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:52 AM   #3
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Well all I know is what Owner Relations told me!

Mine nor I would not have survived a winter in Gallup nor ABQ. I have wintered there in far better built RV's. There are those who do feel they must Flamethrow at many facts. I suppose you highly recommend HC's for winter use even though the basement is open to daylight.
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:50 AM   #4
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I have no idea how the walls etc on HC's are insulated. And I also don't know how the new Montana's are built, but the ones I've seen on the factory tour looked similar to mine and my basement is just what you describe. I opened an extra vent in there on mine the first summer I owned it, so I don't know what my basement would be like otherwise. I do know that in order to winter here I have a house size propane tank that the propane company comes out and fills. It's cheaper that way and otherwise I'd be making very frequent trips to have my bottles refilled. This is also what we did when we worked for Fish and Wildlife in the mountains and all makes of 5vers and motorhomes seemed to use about the same amount as we did.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:03 PM   #5
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I would think that they would do well with all the black surface area to absorb the heat of the sun. Met some folks next door while spending the summer in Minnesota that could not keep their rig cool. Used my IR thermometer and discovered the black sides of the slideouts were 160 degrees in the sunshine.
Yes, I know, it gets colder when the sun goes down.
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:41 PM   #6
richfaa
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Four season means that you can roast or freeze in all four seasons.
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:31 PM   #7
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LOL funny
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Four season means that you can roast or freeze in all four seasons.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:10 PM   #8
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The HCs have a sandwich floor. They have a half inch OSB with 2 inches of styrofoam between. That keeps the interior warm but doesn't help the plumbing on the other side.
Lynwood
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:47 PM   #9
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You can do it. Carry a couple of portable heaters, stuff rags around the edges of the slides, use a electric blanket, keep one propane tank topped off, close the shades/blinds at night...day too if really cold, get some heat tape to wrap your water hose (then plug it in to one of the auxiliary plugs on the stalk so it's not pulling power from your Montana's load), lay a towel along the bottom edge of the door...lots of cold air comes in there, just be creative.
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Old 02-18-2017, 06:35 AM   #10
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Four season means that you can roast or freeze in all four seasons.
I totally agree with Rich
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:29 AM   #11
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These Rv's are NOT designed for extremely cold or extremely hot weather no matter what the marketing hype tells us. Not saying you can not do it many do it but it will be not be pleasant. This summer in the SW with temps well over 100 degrees with both A/C's running we managed to barely stay comfortable. A few years ago here in Florida for a very cold Florida winter we used a tank of propane every 3 days along with everyone else with night time temps in the mid 20's and daytime in the mid 50's to low 60's.We stay in mild temps year round for a reason after 0ver 25 years of Rv'ing and 6 RV's. Just my opinion based on long experience.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:45 AM   #12
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I don't understand why it takes so much heat and AC for these units. I have 2 tons in my house without any backup heat and that is good for 10 degrees to over a 100. Either they are lying about how campers are insulated or the the output of AC units or both.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:00 AM   #13
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One of the best things I've found to help with the cold is to cover the windows with bubble wrap. With the condensation on the, just stick it to the window and the water will hold it in place. Some say the larger bubble wrap works best, but both help reduce the cold feel of a room with windows in it.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:11 AM   #14
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I don't understand why it takes so much heat and AC for these units. I have 2 tons in my house without any backup heat and that is good for 10 degrees to over a 100. Either they are lying about how campers are insulated or the the output of AC units or both.
Lynwood
Both our A/C's are working fine. We can measure the output temp at the vents and it is within all spec's. The pretty dark color of this Big sky sucks up the heat and retains it long after the sun goes down Our furnace is also working fine inefficient as it as. The insulation in these things is about as good as it can be considering the space between the walls available. There are all kinds of places for cold air to enter the RV .Dual pane windows..measure the heat on both sides of the window them measure the heat on the wall right below the window. The wall will most likely be hotter.

Our whole house A/C in our tri level 2200SF S&B will freeze us out. We have all the vents on the bottom level shut off or we would not be able to sit down there with the A/C on.

These things are great for travel but the are not designed for full time living or 4 season living. We have been there and are doing that.
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Old 03-11-2017, 07:37 AM   #15
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So I kept on asking Owner Relations on why they advertised 4 season capability that did not include freezing and asked abut why sales continued to falsely advertise the design capability. This is the last reply

"I apologize that you believe I've "sidestepped" an inquiry you had. The Zero Degree testing is completed in a controlled environment and is not rated with any factors of the outside environment, where you would be in fact using your unit. Water freezes at 32 degrees and that is why we've listed in our owner's manual how to extend your camping season in cold weather temperatures. Wind-chill will be a factor in to the overall temperature hitting the tanks and plumbing itself. We ask that you practice precaution when using the plumbing in temperatures which would cause freezing to the plumbing system."

My unit is back in the dealer in a last attempt to get it as it should have been on pickup day last June thanks to the approval of this representative. If you do complain enough in public they may eventually give in and assign someone to make it right.

We bought the unit for housing for the wife who was a travelling nurse and sometimes had to take contracts in cold climates so 4 seasons was very important. To fix my high country I had to spend many days isolating the area under the steps from the belly area. Instead of using valuable propane to heat the underbelly which certainly is not insulated, nor airtight. I ran an additional outlet and am using a marine heater with freeze functionality to forced air heat the belly. Had I had more ambition I would have changed all the floor ducting to insulated. If you really want to be in cold I suppose you could have the entire belly spray foamed. I also changed all the floor registers to ones that closed.

This appears to work fine for coach temperature but I did not test the plumbing systems in the Michigan cold winter. I suspect much more work like tank heating and adding more insulation above the belly pan cover may be needed to keep the plumbing from freezing. I no longer need to use the unit in the cold due to a heart attack taking the wife at Christmas so I am done trying to redesign a pretty lousy build.
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Old 03-11-2017, 07:42 AM   #16
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MLH
The system design is bad. There is too much air leakage between the coach and basement and you are not getting much efficiency due to this. Your cold air falls to the floor, out to the basement through the holes in the floor, the heating system, under the step, etc. You are trying to cool the outside. A quick fix is to block the step grills and floor registers. Also my unit had supply air restrictions and insufficient ceiling ducts reducing airflow and causing compressors to freeze. Dometic gave me a lot of help to get the units installation fixed.
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:15 AM   #17
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(R-38 Equivalent) Radiant technology insulated roof
(R-15) Insulated slideout floors
Tested and approved for 0 degree usage
(R-21) Insulated main floor
(R-11) Insulated sidewalls

This was took from the HC web site. As well as these units are insulated a candle should heat them and an ice cube should cool them IF they are insulated this good. This is as good as my house is insulated.
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:29 AM   #18
jameswbarton
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Yes mlh the false advertising is irritating. You can remove the bulkhead and see how outside air in huge quantities can enter the living areas from the basement areas. In my design it was next to impossible to seal the holes into the hutch on the wall to the elevated front living area so I had to isolate the basement. I was not amused to see how valuable heated air was vented to the uninsulated basement through the heating system. All that good insulation,if it is true, is wasted with the equivalent of leaving a window open to the living areas from the basement.
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Old 03-11-2017, 10:01 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfmedik View Post
One of the best things I've found to help with the cold is to cover the windows with bubble wrap. With the condensation on the, just stick it to the window and the water will hold it in place. Some say the larger bubble wrap works best, but both help reduce the cold feel of a room with windows in it.
One thing to consider is that a stick house is stuck to the ground (except occasionally in Kansas tornados). Having the insulation of the ground is a major factor affecting results, right after manufacturers lying
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Old 03-11-2017, 10:34 AM   #20
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The S&B is not up off the ground. How thick are the walls in the S&B compared to the RV. There is a whole lot more insulation in the S&B. We have 6 inches of blown insulation in the attic of our S &B in Northern Ohio. We can have snow on the roof of the S &B and it does not melt due to heat escaping. We have Thermal pane windows in the S&B not two pieces of glass thinly separated.
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