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01-10-2020, 08:33 PM
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#1
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Established Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Chilliwack
Posts: 15
M.O.C. #22017
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Black tank failure
While using the Camco Blaster Pro tank flush adapter this morning, I experienced a major problem. Several minutes into the second filling, the black tank fractured its lid and water flowed everywhere. I removed the unit’s chloroplast underbelly and could reach up and lift the damaged section of the tank lid and reach inside the tank. My tank # is HT 543 from Keystone. My RV is a 2014 293RK HC. Where in the Palm Springs area should I begin looking for a replacement? If the roof vent on the tank is clear, how could pressure blow the tank?
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01-11-2020, 09:23 AM
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#2
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Montana Master
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pensacola (mail forward service)
Posts: 3,198
M.O.C. #13740
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Pressure did no blow the tank! These tanks are known to be installed incorrectly by the tank manufacturer, who states not to support the tank by the lips around the top. The tanks expand a bit as they are filled, the top is sealed onto the molded bottom section and this forms the lips that keystone uses as the sole means of support. You can repair the tank with plastimend, but you need to either support the tank underneath in multiple places OR not fill the tank to capacity and never run the rinse port with tank closed.
__________________
2012 F350 6.7 L dually, 2013 3800RE with 6 pt leveling, Sumitomo 17.5" load range h tires, Samsung 18 cu ft residential fridge, 8k Morryde I.S. with disc brakes. Full timing since 2012.
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01-11-2020, 04:11 PM
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#3
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Established Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Chilliwack
Posts: 15
M.O.C. #22017
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The problem I am having is understanding how pressure from the city water can build up in the black tank when it has an inch and a half vent through the roof. I fully understand not paying attention to your flush procedures and having a giesser of effluent spouting from your rooftop vent!
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01-11-2020, 04:15 PM
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#4
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Established Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Chilliwack
Posts: 15
M.O.C. #22017
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Thanks jcurtis934 but pressure from the backwash procedure was most certainly the reason for the tank top splitting.
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01-11-2020, 04:47 PM
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#5
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Site Team
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Wilsey
Posts: 18,799
M.O.C. #11455
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A couple things to consider. 1st when you fill the tank completely up, floating stuff would have no problem finding the vent and plugging it up enough to stress the tank, 2nd the comments about how the tank is placed in there are right on and folks tend to forget what kind of weight is placed on a 50 gallon tank by water at 8.5# per gallon.
__________________
Dick, Joyce, Diego, Picatso and Gustav
2017 3720 RL, and 2013 HC 343RL
Pullrite Hitch, IS, Disk Brakes, 3rd AC, Winegard Traveler, Bathroom door mod, Dometic 320, couch for desk swap, replaced chairs, sun screens, added awnings, etc.
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01-11-2020, 05:02 PM
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#6
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Established Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Chilliwack
Posts: 15
M.O.C. #22017
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Thanks DQ
Both of your points taken. The tank let go in a wall of water. This took place
after draining black tank followed by draining grey followed by first city water flush of black and during the second city water flush it failed. Your floating effluent plug would explain the clogged vent but my back flush fill is usually three or four minutes long.
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01-12-2020, 06:59 AM
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#7
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Montana Master
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mountain Home
Posts: 846
M.O.C. #20949
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Interesting that the black tank sustained this type of damage ... The back pressure trying to come back down the sewer line from tank should have been able to easily overpower the incoming water pressure from the hose.
I use the Valtera flush ... same as the Camco/Rhino and have for many years. But I don’t leave the gate valve closed for more than 2 minutes during each backfill to wash gray or black tanks.
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01-12-2020, 10:11 AM
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#8
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Folsom, California
Posts: 554
M.O.C. #21903
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I use this to make sure I don't overflow my tanks when flushing:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It measures water flow. Since I know by black tank holds 42 gallons, I usually fill it with 36 gallons and then drain. Do this until it drains clean. I use one of the clear plastic fittings:
https://www.amazon.com/Valterra-Degr...578848890&s=hi
This procedure ensures that I never overflow my black tank again. Don't ask how I know.
__________________
'05 F250 6.0 Bullet Proofed - Sold
'17 F350 6.7 Lariet
'02 Montana 3280RL Upgraded a bunch.
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01-12-2020, 10:23 AM
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#9
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mesa az
Posts: 2,970
M.O.C. #5651
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Good idea, Hblick. I use the standard Montana backflush and shoot for 4-5 minutes of rinse. I haven't had any problem except when I get distracted and let it run too long (new tank required twice!!!).
__________________
Tom and Gail
2013 Mountaineer 362
2012 Silverado 2500
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01-12-2020, 10:30 AM
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#10
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Folsom, California
Posts: 554
M.O.C. #21903
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twindman
Good idea, Hblick. I use the standard Montana backflush and shoot for 4-5 minutes of rinse. I haven't had any problem except when I get distracted and let it run too long (new tank required twice!!!).
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When I replaced my black tank last summer, I decided not to install the flush wand into the side of my new tank. Just didn't want to drill a hole in new $500 tank. Flush wand didn't work that great.
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01-19-2020, 01:13 PM
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#11
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Established Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Wausau
Posts: 37
M.O.C. #18931
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An easy way to make sure your tank does not overfill. Easy to get distracted by people and other things while flushing. I use the clock app and set timer for 5 minutes. No matter what you are doing alarm goes off and you know you have to empty. Works for me anyway
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01-19-2020, 05:16 PM
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#12
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Mesa
Posts: 279
M.O.C. #24588
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A hydraulic law every aspiring fire truck driver is taught: One pound of pressure will push a column of water (in a pipe) 2.3 feet high or to put it conversely, a column of water 2.3 feet high, exerts a pressure of 1 psi at it's base. With this knowledge, let's look at the problem posted i.e. the tank ruptured. Assuming a height of the tank's vent pipe opening being 10', the following applies: 10' divided by 2.3 equates to 4.348 psi at the top of the tank when the water exits the vent opening. Using a tank dimension of 24" X 48", the total square inches of the tank top is 1,152. Then if the 4.348 psi is multiplied times the square inches of the tank's top, we see that the total force applied is 5,008.896 pounds. At the point the tanks becomes full and the water is just at the point of entering the vent pipe, the tank pressure climbs from zero to 5,008 in just the short time it takes to fill the interior of the 1 1/2" vent pipe (maybe 5 seconds?). Lesson to be learned here is stay far, far away from over filling the tank. Another post by DQDICK suggested the possibility of a blocked vent pipe. Imagine if this scenario were to occur: the tank psi would be whatever the pressure of the source water supply. Thus 40 psi house pressure times the 1,152 square inches would equal 46,080 pounds of force on the tank top. If the object is to flush every surface of the tank's inside, perhaps a flushing wand inserted through the toilet would be a safer way. In my area, the house pressure is 80 psi. I would be uncomfortable running water for 5 minutes for fear I might overfill the tank. 3 minutes is my comfort limit when flushing, with an alarm set on my smart phone, and never l being further than reaching distance to the dump valve.
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01-19-2020, 05:42 PM
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#13
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Moultrie
Posts: 250
M.O.C. #20747
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If that 46080 lbs of force is spread out over the 1152 Sq inches then it is still 40 psi.
__________________
Frank and Marilyn
2014 3402RL, Sailun S637/Disc Brakes
2015 F350 CC LWB SRW 6.7L PSD FX4
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01-19-2020, 05:55 PM
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#14
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: On the Road
Posts: 166
M.O.C. #14645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAinaMontana
If that 46080 lbs of force is spread out over the 1152 Sq inches then it is still 40 psi.
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Yes, only 40 pounds per square inch but isn't it still capable of moving 46k pounds which is 23 tons (heavier than any of our most overloaded Montanas)? That's enough to separate the welded lids on these tanks. A roto-molded tank may be stronger and therefore spew from the roof vent when overfilled.
__________________
Retired FULLTIMERS that Travel & Work -- 2020 3931FB Legacy Edition -- OEM Sailun S637T's -- 2017 F350 DRW, 4.10 axle, 6.7L -- PullRite OE Puck Super-5th 25K hitch -- Dish Network w/ Winegard G2 automatic portable antenna -- 50A Surge Guard portable -- WiFi Ranger Elite -- Blue Streak -- YourBestAddress.com -- RVSA Certified Technician -- The UnBeetable Experience
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01-19-2020, 06:03 PM
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#15
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: On the Road
Posts: 166
M.O.C. #14645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firestation12
A hydraulic law every aspiring fire truck driver is taught: One pound of pressure will push a column of water (in a pipe) 2.3 feet high or to put it conversely, a column of water 2.3 feet high, exerts a pressure of 1 psi at it's base. With this knowledge, let's look at the problem posted i.e. the tank ruptured. Assuming a height of the tank's vent pipe opening being 10', the following applies: 10' divided by 2.3 equates to 4.348 psi at the top of the tank when the water exits the vent opening. Using a tank dimension of 24" X 48", the total square inches of the tank top is 1,152. Then if the 4.348 psi is multiplied times the square inches of the tank's top, we see that the total force applied is 5,008.896 pounds. At the point the tanks becomes full and the water is just at the point of entering the vent pipe, the tank pressure climbs from zero to 5,008 in just the short time it takes to fill the interior of the 1 1/2" vent pipe (maybe 5 seconds?). Lesson to be learned here is stay far, far away from over filling the tank. Another post by DQDICK suggested the possibility of a blocked vent pipe. Imagine if this scenario were to occur: the tank psi would be whatever the pressure of the source water supply. Thus 40 psi house pressure times the 1,152 square inches would equal 46,080 pounds of force on the tank top. If the object is to flush every surface of the tank's inside, perhaps a flushing wand inserted through the toilet would be a safer way. In my area, the house pressure is 80 psi. I would be uncomfortable running water for 5 minutes for fear I might overfill the tank. 3 minutes is my comfort limit when flushing, with an alarm set on my smart phone, and never l being further than reaching distance to the dump valve.
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Wouldn't your calculation of 5008 pounds assume the 10 ft of height is 24 x 48 inches vs. what ever the 1.5 inch pipe (pi r squared?) area is? It's been a long time since I studied this but I seem to remember that pressure is constant?
__________________
Retired FULLTIMERS that Travel & Work -- 2020 3931FB Legacy Edition -- OEM Sailun S637T's -- 2017 F350 DRW, 4.10 axle, 6.7L -- PullRite OE Puck Super-5th 25K hitch -- Dish Network w/ Winegard G2 automatic portable antenna -- 50A Surge Guard portable -- WiFi Ranger Elite -- Blue Streak -- YourBestAddress.com -- RVSA Certified Technician -- The UnBeetable Experience
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01-19-2020, 06:28 PM
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#16
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Moultrie
Posts: 250
M.O.C. #20747
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My hydraulics are real rusty and physics is almost 50 years ago. I do know that a 48500 lb D6 Cat only creates 7.9 psi a the ground but I sure don't want one to run over my foot.
__________________
Frank and Marilyn
2014 3402RL, Sailun S637/Disc Brakes
2015 F350 CC LWB SRW 6.7L PSD FX4
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01-19-2020, 06:32 PM
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#17
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New Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Rohnert Park
Posts: 8
M.O.C. #20306
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The tank is made from ABS plastic. I cracked the entire length of the top on my black tank by over filling it.
I repaired the tank with ABS glue from Home Depot. I glued the crack on the top then cut some 1/8 thick ABS and glued it over the crack and clamped it with the cheap spring clamps from Harbor freight. This fix worked very well and I did not have to remove the tank to do the repair. I will never close the valve to fill the tank again to flush it.
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01-19-2020, 06:51 PM
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#18
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Mesa
Posts: 279
M.O.C. #24588
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Diameter of the pipe is non sequitur. Depth of water creates the pressure. If you were a diver, you'd remember that for every 33' of depth, the pressure is 1 atmosphere or 14.7 psi. 33 divided by 14.7 = 2.24. this where the rounded off figure of 2.3 psi comes from.
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01-19-2020, 07:11 PM
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#19
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Mesa
Posts: 279
M.O.C. #24588
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you are correct to say it is still only 40 psi, but the total force exerted against the top of the tank is 46,000 pounds of force. More than enough to cause failure. The figure GAinaMontana quotes of 7.4 psi exerted by a D6 cat is pounds per square inch, distributed over the area of the track. When the D6 runs over your foot, it's total weight no longer is equally distributed, but will be concentrated on that bump on the ground called your foot. I too pass on a D6 running over my foot!
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01-19-2020, 07:32 PM
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#20
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Mesa
Posts: 279
M.O.C. #24588
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Here's a link to a more in depth (pun) explanation of how a lesser pressure can lift a greater weight.
Keep in mind, the weight of the car was supported by an area of 100 square inches. change that to the square inches of the tank's top, and it begins to make sense how the vent's 10' of elevation can create so much total force against the top.
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