Hot water freezing - Montana Owners Club

Wayne and Carolyn Mathews · 12-09-2007, 10:58 AM

Our Montana is skirted, and we have not only a heat lamp but a 1200 watt heater underneath the kitchen area, twice now we've had our hot water freeze on us. Both times we were out of town overnight, but in anticipation of the cold weather, we left the furnace running, set on 55; we also had the heat lamp and auxiliary heater under the trailer running. The temperature did fall to -5 the first time things froze, but it was well above that temperature under the trailer. This time, the temperature hit -7, but again, it is a lot warmer than that under the trailer. So, where is that water freezing? It has to be in an area not in the heated underbelly or in the area where we have the two extra heat sources. We are new at this winter RV business, but with at least 4 or 5 more months of this kind of weather ahead of us, we need to find the problem and a solution. (No, winterizing and putting our rig in storage and then renting an apartment isn't an option, unfortunately!)

Icehouse · 12-09-2007, 11:04 AM

Wayne we're thinking. We'll tell you what we come up with!

Illini Trekker · 12-09-2007, 11:34 AM

Hi Wayne I'm impress that the Montana Is working so well at low a temperatures. My trailer is older that your and know that mine would freeze at much warmer temps if not for the heat tapes that cover the line now. It may be time to drop a couple of lower panels. This will give you a better idea of whats down there. It just takes a cordless drill with a 3/8s socket on it. The first thing you'll is is the foil bubble wrap above the black belly cover. Pull that back and with a flash light or drop light you can get a look between the frame members.

Wayne and Carolyn Mathews · 12-09-2007, 11:56 AM

I forgot to add that we're full-timing for a couple of months in our 3585SA, which we bought in late August. Also, the hot water, which wouldn't run an hour ago, is now running just fine. The only thing we've done since coming home is turn the furnace up to 70. Beats the heck out of us how we don't have water and then we get it (both times) within an hour or less. Well, I won't complain because we are back in business here on Horse Prairie, but I surely wish we could find out why the water freezes with the skirted rig and auxiliary heat underneath, and why the water begins to flow an hour or so after we get home. Thanks for the encouragement and hints--and keep them coming, because sooner or later someone will have the magic fix!

noneck · 12-09-2007, 12:25 PM

Whoa...-5 & -7?! No matter how much you think your good to go with extra heating efforts there can always be a piping issue in close proximity to low temperature exposure then no water flow.

Illini Trekker · 12-09-2007, 12:27 PM

Coming from your furnace the under belly has a 3" duct that dumps warm air from your heater that will help keep the tanks and water lines from freezing. But that 3" hose has it's handful to keep near 90 square feet above freezing. The more you use the heater that helps to heat that area. There are many gaps, sags, larger holes than needed of pipes, frame members, cut in that black under belly that allow air to get in and out. Also for every slide out you'll have slide out tracks and holes for the hydraulic rams to work.

sailer · 12-09-2007, 02:59 PM

Heated water will freeze much faster then water never heated . you have removed a chemicl they say heating it so 50 is too low next time try 57 deg as the furnance is not running enough same as in a house ,, you can't run a house at 50 . the furnance will break down tooo fast . go to a heating co and ask ,, 57 to 58 is the magic # i am told on my bldings and north property or its a problem john

Ozzie · 12-09-2007, 03:12 PM

You might be onto something there sailor...I seem to recall from my days as a Realtor that pressurized water will freeze at 52(?) degrees.
Of course I did not test that number, but am very curious how it holds up. We always had a warning system placed in homes that were vacant and not winterized. The alarm went off if the home hit 55.

Ozz · 12-10-2007, 12:50 AM

There is very little to keep the cold out in the hot water heater cavity. The hot water heater slides into the trailer. The heater is insulated to keep the hot water hot, but the lines coming out the back are not insulated, one would not think they would freeze there, but on an off cycle, maybe.
I think 32 degrees is the freezing point previous hot water, or cold. I have my furnace set on 45 degrees in K.C., so I hope that works, but I drained all my water lines there.
Back to Wayne's post, I am not familiar with your unit, but I would try and access the back of your H.W. heater and check the lines there. Maybe add insulation there.
You might get a remote read thermostat, take the lead and fish it to various locations to test the temperatures there, that would give you an idea of the Cold migration into your unit at those points.

Bob & Lee · 12-10-2007, 02:40 AM

It was 10 here last night and our heat was set at 60 I somtimes put it at 55 but when real cold is comming I raise it to 60. This morning the water ran slow for a min. then good to go. hope this stays good the remainder of the winter, last year was OK.
Bob

forgot I'm in Fountain Colorado.

Ozz · 12-10-2007, 02:46 AM

I would recommend installing a switch, like I did. The switch runs the furnace fan all the time it is on, the heat cycles on when the thermostat calls for the heat setting. This keeps the interior air circulating beneath the trailer even when the furnace burner is not on. Less of a temperature swing beneath the trailer, and more comfortable inside the unit.
It is shown in Ozz's mods. (Radio Shack and a two wire run to the circuit board.)

MikeM · 12-10-2007, 05:12 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Ozz

I would recommend installing a switch, like I did. The switch runs the furnace fan all the time it is on....
It is shown in Ozz's mods. (Radio Shack and a two wire run to the circuit board.)

Ozz,

I found the pics of the switch installation - can you describe how to wire it or do you have a schematic available?

Ozz · 12-10-2007, 07:25 AM

Just go from a 12 volt tap on the circuit board to the fan terminal on the circuit board, through the switch you mount, the switch could be closer than mine, depends where the furnace is mounted in your unit. I would run 14 Gage stranded automotive wire, to and from the switch. When at the circuit board, just jumper it there with a test wire, to see if you are on the right terminals. They are marked-stamped there, so you will see the terminals.

MacDR50 · 12-10-2007, 01:15 PM

Heat wrap was mentioned. A drastic and more labour intensive solution would be to run a small recirculating pump taking water back to the hot water tank. That would involve a lot of plumbing. If you find the cold spot piping in some heat may be the solution. I searched for a liquid crystal strip thermometer that goes down that low that you could use to find the coldest section but no luck.

MikeM · 12-10-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Ozz

Just go from a 12 volt tap on the circuit board to the fan terminal on the circuit board,

Thanks!!!

sreigle · 12-14-2007, 04:09 PM

This is really a longshot and I'm not sure how this might affect hot water and not cold water. I think yours has the convenience hookup center inside the basement storage doors like ours, right? That hole in the bottom where you run the hoses has to let a lot of cold air in, maybe enough to freeze the hoses and maybe the connections through the wall. I stuff rags in those holes both to keep cold air out and also to make it more difficult for critters. We got down to five below last winter without freezing. Make sure the furnace runs occasionally. We did nothing to insulate this rig other than to film the windows since we don't have dual panes. I did have a heat taped water hose and heat taped the park's spigot, though.

Wayne and Carolyn Mathews · 12-15-2007, 03:49 AM

I think stuffing the hole in the convenience center may have helped. Also, we set the furnace between 68 - 72, depending on what it takes to offset the conditions outside. After doing that, we haven't had any frozen lines, not even when it was -12 for several nights in a row. Our cat is really happy that we're keeping the thermostat set a bit higher, too, so it's a win-win situation!

Ozzie · 12-15-2007, 04:10 AM

It's great to hear Steve's suggestion helped out (especially on the model I have my eye on) - if you've ever wandered through his pics...you can see he's been there a few times.

Retread · 01-28-2008, 05:17 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by Wayne and Carolyn Mathews

I think stuffing the hole in the convenience center may have helped. Also, we set the furnace between 68 - 72, depending on what it takes to offset the conditions outside. After doing that, we haven't had any frozen lines, not even when it was -12 for several nights in a row. Our cat is really happy that we're keeping the thermostat set a bit higher, too, so it's a win-win situation!

Retread · 01-28-2008, 05:24 AM

I use plastic grocery bags to stuff the hole in the convenience center. After a couple trips to the store take one or two of the bags and stuff them with the rest of the bags to make pillows and stuff around the hoses on the inside and the outside. this keeps out the cold and also the critters.

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