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Old 02-28-2010, 04:33 AM   #1
HughM
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R Values

Does anyone know the R values of the floor, walls, slides, and roof of a Montanna? I've never seen it published and I'm curious as to what they are.
I keep seeing people posting how cold they are and now I'm wondering what insulation is in the units.
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:01 AM   #2
camper4
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The Montana web site claims R38 roof, R21 floor, and R9 walls. Having torn into my Monty, I find it very hard to imagine how they can make those claims with a straight face. I would suggest those numbers are the max you will find in some places. There is also a real problem with air flow and seals. If you spend some time and work on those issues you can improve your situation but it can not match a modern stick built.
My opinion only.
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:18 AM   #3
BubbaLynn
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As camper4 has already said, the Keystone web site claims R-38 roof, R-21 floor, & R-9 in the walls of the new Montana's.
They claim R-14 Floor & Roof and R-9 walls in the new Mountaineer's & Big Sky's.
I have no idea what the older ones might be, but I too find that hard to believe new or older.
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:34 AM   #4
Mudchief
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Where the Montana and many others come up short is in the floor of the slides. There is nothing except 3/4 inch plywood.
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:54 AM   #5
DarMar
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Now the New Keystone Alpines state R40+ floor, R11 sidewalls, R28 ceiling. Lets see R40+ Alpine floor compared to the R21 Montana floor that is pretty well double, why?
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Old 02-28-2010, 09:54 AM   #6
richfaa
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The problem is with the slides. The main body of this Montana 3400 is Ok. The floor is not cold. The slides are just not a tight seal and I don't know how any slide can be. There are to many places for air to get in particularly at the corners. Was here at the PC desk at the 3400 a couple of days ago when it was very windy. a piece of paper fell off the desk and landed on the floor near the bottom of the slide to my left. A gust of wind hit the camper and the paper blew across the floor. Stuffed a hand towel in the corner. We have hand towels stuffed in many corners. The only slide we have not detected a leak at the corner is the bedroom slide. They can put all the insulation they want in the main body but till they can come up with some way to better insulate and seal the slides...these guys will be cold.
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Old 02-28-2010, 10:49 AM   #7
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I agree it's the slides. The new Montanas have those numbers posted way up near the top of this thread but our older ones (2007 in our case) have less R value. We have handled cold to five below, twice, zero a few times, and ten days or so with a high for the period of 14, and several times we've gone days without seeing anything close to 32.

We dress like we did in our stick home. Sweatshirt, etc. We run electric heaters along with the propane furnace. We don't have dual panes (a mistake on my part when ordering) so we film the windows. That makes a big difference. This last December we had foam on the sldes of the slides as well as slide roof and floor but probably won't do that next time. The drafts we get seem to mostly come from along the edges of the slides, as noted above.
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Old 02-28-2010, 04:52 PM   #8
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I have an '06 3400 and feel fairly comfortable inside ours. I was at Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio during the wind storms of hurricane Ike and never had paper flying around my trailer as previously stated. I really don't feel any drafts anywhere inside. Strange how some units are tighter than others. We do have a 1500 watt electric heater running most nights and it is around 65 in our trailer, which we like, just wear a nice sweater over a t-shirt and sweat pants most of the evenings.

We also don't do northern climes this time of year, FL, AZ, TX and SoCal. We try and make sure we are headed south by October each year. So far it has worked well for the last three years.

I have the 2006 brochure and it states: Roof-R14, Sidewalls-R9 and Floor-R21, sure would like the R-38 in the roof....
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Old 03-01-2010, 01:36 AM   #9
DarMar
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We concur with Rich, our slides are quite drafty, desk slide is definitely the worst, but for some reason we don't feel the cold as bad nor do we have drafts when it comes to the bedroom slide. As stated no sense aspiring for better R factor until they address the seals and R value of the slides. Now, if the other areas were as well sealed as the bedroom, we would be quite comfy.
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Old 03-01-2010, 03:49 AM   #10
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As stated earlier, I stuff something (old T shirts, even WM bags) in the slide corners where they meet the body when exteneded...cuts down the drafts a great deal.
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:21 AM   #11
richfaa
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We gotta take a look at Phil's 3400. He has got a no draft camper..We need to see what is different about his slides and get Keystone to do the same for ours.

We purchased a bag of Car polishing towels at WM and stuff them in the corners when we find a draft.Our bedroom slide is also the best....how come?????
It looks like it is warming up here for March. 70's today 80's by the weekend...
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:56 PM   #12
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As new rigs come out R values are increasing by using special reflective materials. One may have a value of R40 in the floor but the big loss is through the windows, dual pane glass with a 1/2 inch spacing (vacuum) will give a R factor of 2 to 2.5. In an RV with many windows that are dual pane and a 1/4 inch spacing, the R value will only reach 1.5 unless sealed. Guess where ice will form in very cold weather over a period of time? Normally the windows; even if they are dual pane. So until the manufactures do something about increasing R values with the windows (sealed units), the higher R values in the walls, ceilings and floors add little value to reducing heat loss. On our four slides, only the kitchen slide seems to be the problem where lino is in place of carpet; we have to stuff the bottom corners to keep out the dust and cold drafts and yes the slide floors are cold.
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Old 03-02-2010, 03:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by 8e3k0

As new rigs come out R values are increasing by using special reflective materials. One may have a value of R40 in the floor but the big loss is through the windows, dual pane glass with a 1/2 inch spacing (vacuum) will give a R factor of 2 to 2.5. In an RV with many windows that are dual pane and a 1/4 inch spacing, the R value will only reach 1.5 unless sealed. Guess where ice will form in very cold weather over a period of time? Normally the windows; even if they are dual pane. So until the manufactures do something about increasing R values with the windows (sealed units), the higher R values in the walls, ceilings and floors add little value to reducing heat loss. On our four slides, only the kitchen slide seems to be the problem where lino is in place of carpet; we have to stuff the bottom corners to keep out the dust and cold drafts and yes the slide floors are cold.
I can't imagine sealed windows staying 'sealed' for very long on the roads on which we drive.
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:38 AM   #14
Wild Horse
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Anyone ever used a laser thermometer to do some checking ? I have several for work..an inexpensive one (ryobi) I think runs about 30 bucks. When I pick up my monty I intend to use the laser to check it out...oughta be fun, and enlightening !
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Old 03-10-2010, 09:42 AM   #15
richfaa
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Wild horse...That will be very enlightening. Check out the warm and toasty package..
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:06 PM   #16
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A few years ago I converted my stick house to radiant heat. I'm sort of an anal DIY type so I did it myself and had to learn a lot in the process. Here's the short story about what I learned.

We all probably forgot there are three ways to 'move' heat; conduction, convection, and radiation. Insulating a home is an exercise in trying to contain your heat and these three culprits are always at work trying to undo your efforts.

Stick houses, at least modern ones, do a really good job on convection and conduction. Tight houses cut down on convection by stopping air infiltration. They cut down on conduction by utilizing really high R values, and most do nothing about radiation.

To fight conduction takes thick walls; the thicker the better. Trailers can't have thick walls so they opt for fighting radiation while mostly ignoring conduction. The foil stuff is the radiation fighter.

The problem with understanding all this is that R values were developed to provide a way to indicate effectiveness in fighting conduction. It was never intended to indicate effectiveness in stopping radiation. The people who sell it are forced to market the stuff in an "R Value" world so they fudge some numbers up to try to compete with the pink stuff. If you look at the foil stuff it's just bubble wrap encased in tin foil. It is a very effective radiation fighter ( probably 99% effective) but it's conductive strength is equivalent to just bubble wrap; very thin bubble wrap.

R value on the foil stuff is misleading at best and more likely a fairy tale. It's not that the material is no good. It's really good but it's really good at stopping the kind of heat flow we usually ignore.

I don't know how to quantify the relative amount of flows from the three culprits. I just know that to really contain heat you need to fight all three. Stick houses do a good job on two of the three and trailers go a good job on one of the three. It's the only weapon the manufacturers have.
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:49 PM   #17
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I have a laser thermometer I use to check wheel bearings temperatures on the house when on the road, and some other uses. But have never used it to check the house for heat loss. I may have to try that when we get back in colder weather.
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Old 03-10-2010, 04:42 PM   #18
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You can have all the R values you want on the walls,roof,floor, ect ect. they will not convince me that there numbers are correct, I can put my hand in front of a plug on the rear cap wall and feel air comming out of the plug area, The windows are the biggest transfer of cold into the Monty, more than any other item in our trailers all that aluminum transfers from outside right through the inside mounting ring and center support for the frame on a cold night put your hand on it you will be surprised its like having a refrigerator coils on your walls, they need to go to plastic and it will stop a lot of that cold from comming in.
and the slides as others have mentioned need help in the R factor area.
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Old 03-11-2010, 02:18 AM   #19
richfaa
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pbahlin.... Very educational and informative post... Again we are victims of marketing. Can it be that these things are drafty, leak and are not warm and toasty.....who would have thunk
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:52 AM   #20
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I believe in stick built homes the greatest heat loss is the windows, and I think that is one of the problems with keeping warm in our coaches. Last year when we picked up our Mountaineer in Michigan in October the night temps were in the low 30's. On the pad at the dealership next to us was another Montana. Of course you could hear the whine of the furnaces during the night, our furnace was on the curb side and theirs was on the street side so the furnaces were facing each other. In the morning we talked to our neighbor and they said we must like it cold in the coach because they claimed our furnace ran half as much as theirs during the night. I told them we had our furnace set on 70, they were surprised and said that is where they had their thermostat set. The biggest difference between the two coaches was we had ordered ours with double pane windows. They were surprised to learn that was an option. I am not sure if this was really the reason or not for the difference in the furnaces, but I sure do not miss the condensation on the windows and they also help keep it quieter on the inside. The double pane windows will also make it easier to keep it cool in the summer. The downside of the double pane windows is that they add extra weight, how much I have no idea.
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