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06-10-2009, 08:21 PM
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#1
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
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GFCI failure.... what gives?
On our last outing my daughter staying with us reported the microwave was not working. Assuming this was on its own circuit I removed the microwave and plugged into another 110v outlet. The panel now worked. I buzzed the outlet and found it was dead.
I removed to the ION cover (where all the fuses and circuit breaker are located) and found NO circuit breakers had tripped. I was very puzzled, so I removed the ION panel and found that the 20 amp circuit breaker was shared in the same housing with a 15 amp circuit breaker for the bedroom. I found that the outlets and the only 110v lights in the bath/bedroom area also did not work. AHA! I checked the GFCI at the lavatory and found it inoperable. It would not reset, nor would the TEST button work. Ugh, this thing was either broken or not getting power. I went back to the ION panel and found power was available just not getting through, probably because of a broken GFCI (this has happened in stick houses before).
I put the microwave back into place and took the 20amp portion for the microwave at the circuit breaker and moved it to the unused washer/dryer 20 amp circuit breaker and turned the power back on and now it worked.
I went to a hardware store and picked up a new GFCI, and replaced it and all the bedroom/bathroom circuits are now working, except that I did not put the microwave wire back to its original position.
Does anyone have an idea why a GFCI failure for a bedroom would cause a "shared" circuit breaker housing for the microwave to fail? I buzzed out this dual circuit breaker and found they were indeed separate even though they were in the same housing.
I will remove the microwave wire from the Washer/Dryer circuit and put it back in its original spot next to the bedroom/bathroom circuit breaker. If something blows that can be a new clue.
Oh well, the life of an RVer remains challenging.
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06-11-2009, 02:41 AM
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#2
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Haldimand County
Posts: 2,413
M.O.C. #122
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Can't explain that, but is your MW on a switched circuit that shares the MW with a fireplace? If so, could that switch be in the wrong position for the MW?
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06-11-2009, 04:02 AM
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#3
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land O Lakes
Posts: 2,751
M.O.C. #7753
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Art, have you had a lot of rain lately or is there a possibility that moisture got into your exterior outlet? Our GFI will kick out those same circuits if water gets to that outlet or an extension plugged into that outlet. It also takes out the same outlets. The wiring fairy has had a good laugh on us with his routing of power wires... Dave
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06-11-2009, 04:57 AM
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#4
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Montana Master
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Leona
Posts: 6,382
M.O.C. #2059
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I seems that we have two GFCI circuits, one in kitchen and another at the lavatory. I have had to replace both those plugs due to failure of the GFCI to reset. I have not had the issue arise on the new ones. I did identify the wall plugs, etc., that were affected by each GFCI circuit. This info lets me test and reset the GFCI before I go to the beaker panel to check for a tripped breaker.
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06-11-2009, 05:35 AM
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#5
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Montana Master
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location:
Posts: 2,376
M.O.C. #6575
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I had a little trouble digesting all that. When you say the breakers share the same housing; are you saying it is a tandem breaker? Or, is it merely two breakers side by side plugged onto the same buss? In our Mountaineer, we have a circuit dedicated to the microwave. It is protected by a GFIC receptacle though. I actually added another receptacle to the microwave circuit, as we were short on outlets in the kitchen area.
Like every thing else on and in our RV's, the GFIC outlets are low bid. Most likely made in China. That equals low quality in my book.
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06-11-2009, 08:50 PM
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#6
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
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Slickwillie... That's a good description - Tandem breaker. It is a single circuit breaker housing that when removed from the panel is one housing with a 15 amp breaker on the left side and a 20 breaker on the right side. The ION power panel has several of these for the whole rig. Some have two 15 amp and some have two 20 amp. There are also some single circuit break per housing ones, too. I guess the pairs can be configured in these combinations and take up less room. What I don't understand is why the 20amp MW breaker didn't provide power when the 15amp BR breaker lost it's GFCI outlet.
Hey Exnavydiver... the only water damage possibility is someone actually getting water on the circuit or light switch since it is right next to the lavatory but about 6 inches up from the counter's surface. The exterior outlet is on a different circuit. I think the GFCI just lost its brains. I have seen this on the stick house.
As of this post, I still have not returned the MW wire to the original spot on the "tandem" breaker.
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06-12-2009, 04:33 AM
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#7
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Montana Master
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Shelburne
Posts: 688
M.O.C. #8693
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Going out on a limb here...are the MW and GFCI circuits' wires properly bonded in the receptacles and in the panel, i.e., a discrete hot, neutral and ground wire for every single circuit (no sharing), securely fastened into the appropriate lug? I'd hate to think that the neutral is returning by alternate paths, like the GFIC. I would try putting the MW circuit back in its slot, then test the GFIC and see if the MW quits.
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06-14-2009, 06:07 PM
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#8
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Spokane Valley
Posts: 222
M.O.C. #5255
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Also going out on a limb here, but have found it to be quite common with electrical failures. Check the neutral (white) wires on the buss bar inside the main breaker box. The wires are screwed down to the buss bar and quite often these screws are loose or work loose over time. If you have one loose, that circuit will fail and sometimes work depending on whether a connection is made again. A sure sign is darkening of the white insulation near the buss strip. Check all the screws on that buss strip to make certain they are tight. You might also want to check the ground buss bar as well. I suggest disconnecting from the power post before working inside the breaker panel.
Let us know what you find.
Good luck.
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06-14-2009, 07:24 PM
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#9
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
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Well, it appears the problem is solved. I put the MW back on it's original tandem circuit with the Bed/Bathroom circuit breaker and it is working fine there, too.
All neutrals and grounds were nice and tight, the GFCI by the lavatory still works and is not affecting the MW and all seems normal. I guess I'll never know why the MW went out when the bedroom/bathroom GFCI failed. Replacing the GFCI and putting all the 110v wiring back to its places (reconnected the W/D circuit) and everything is now back to its original wiring configuration.
I will close the book on this one for now. Thanks all for some ideas to help me understand what was happening.
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06-15-2009, 03:08 AM
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#10
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Montana Master
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location:
Posts: 2,376
M.O.C. #6575
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If you're gonna be on the road, I would suggest a spare breaker. Not sure what your panel takes; ours has the Square D Homline IIRC. The tandem breakers are readily available at Lowe's.
My reasoning being that one side of the breaker shouldn't cause the other to trip. I think you may have a bad breaker. I've used the space saving type breakers for years with no problems, the ones I used being the old piggy back type. It is my understanding the tandem are supposed to be much better.
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